Financial Coercion with Victoria Kirilloff

Today, we are diving into Financial Coercion with Victoria Kirilloff. Victoria helps to simplify complex financial issues that often arise during divorces involving manipulation and control.

In this episode we discover how to identify signs of financial coercion, learn strategies to regain control over your finances post-divorce and understand the importance of knowing your numbers for empowerment and independence.

Victoria is a Holistic Wealth Consultant who specializes in helping families make data driven financial decisions during divorce. I highly recommend reaching out to her if numbers aren't your forte. 

You can connect with her here: https://victoriakirilloff.com/

Transcript

Welcome to the You're not crazy podcast hosted by Jessica Knight, a certified life coach who specializes in healing from narcissistic and emotional abuse. This podcast is intended to help you identify manipulative and abusive behavior, set boundaries with yourself and others. And heal the relationship with yourself, so you can learn to love in a healthy way. You can connect with Jessica and find additional resources, content and coaching, add emotional abuse c dot com. Hello, and as always, thank you so much for being here.

I have a very special guest today and her name is Victoria, and she is a high conflict divorce, certified financial analyst, and mediator and she is amazing when it comes to taking the numbers, boiling it down to a place that looks and feels understandable to you so that you can articulate this to your attorney and work with them to get to a settlement and to even understand what is going on in your divorce. I have sent many of my clients to her because I found that she has such a great way of making some really complex things sound very simple and is able to do a lot of the analysis and the work behind the scenes to be able to show you what is what and where is it and whether you are the bread winner, whether you are the... Have not been involved in finances whether everything is sort of split in theory 50 50, but you feel like it's not. She is definitely an amazing resource to have to go to to begin to un a out of the webs. She joins me today to talk about financial portion, and we deep dive into a few of the various topics that can come up in this very monstrous topic.

To really just shed light on some of the most typical issue that I see in my clients. And of course, there's a lot of variations between them, but I feel like a lot of people get stuck when it comes to the finances, especially if they haven't been really paying attention to them really involved in them. I know a lot of people that are just, like, while, the money comes in and us is what I do with it. You know, but, like, when you want to get divorce, knowing your numbers can be so helpful. It's also a way in which that the abuser will typically control you or try and control you.

You know, it's a... They either use money to get you to stay or they use money against you and this is designed to help peel back some of those layers and show you what's actually happening. I hope that this podcast is validating for you Before we dive in, just a reminder, to find me, you can go to emotional abuse coach dot com or high conflict boris coaching dot com, you also can go to emotional abuse coach dot com. And then if you want to email me Jessica at jessica night coaching dot com. I have a lot of new offerings up on my website.

A lot of courses. I still do wanna 1 coaching, of course. I have very few spots available, but I always say this just reach out to me and we will figure it out. I hope this is helpful. And before, we dive into the episode.

All victoria's links are in the show. So if you are listening to this and you're like oh, my god. I need this support. Her links are there. My links are there.

We are both there to help. Hi, Victoria. Thank you so much for joining me again today. Thank you, Jessica. It's wonderful to be here.

I'm grateful. To be a part of this podcast and share more about financial today. I... I'm super excited to talk to you about this because, every time that you and I talk for 1 of these. We spend more time talking before the podcast.

Or at the meeting which I love. But, like, I still... I really appreciate how, like, you know, you are the financial side, and you can simplify a lot of that and, you know, people come to me to simplify or understand what they're... What's going on the manipulate side of a lot of things or the emotional side. And mh.

I I really wanted to dive into this topic with you because I know you have a personal experience with it, but I also know that you help others understand what's actually happening sometimes in regards to financial portion. Absolutely. You know, and first, I have to begin by saying that this is not specific financial advice. This is for educational purposes only. And if you do have questions, I offer, free 30 minute consultations, but the most important thing you can do is to talk to the right professional to get help.

Yes. Yeah. All of the problems you are facing even though it might feel like you are in a vacuum. You are not alone. Yeah.

Yeah. There's so many of us who have gone through this. So reaching out for helps important. Absolutely. And thank you for framing that exactly.

Not this is not legal, and this is not legal advice. This is a podcast that offers suggestions. Simple. If you can just tell us briefly who you are and what you do, and then we'll dive into the topic a bit deeper. Absolutely.

So, I am a certified divorce financial analyst and a family financial mediator, and I happen to specialize in narcissistic and high conflict divorce. Mh. I found this profession kind of by accident. Mh. I had a super abusive relationship, and I had to get out.

I was so frozen, but I didn't know what to do. I was trauma bonded to Voldemort, and I was... Obsessed with, you know, maintaining this facade because if everything looked perfect on the outside, I didn't have to address the terror that was going on behind closed doors. And there was a domestic violence incident, and I realized I had to get out and that's when I went back to what my father taught me, which was financial analysis. So, yeah.

Long story short, I used math to get rid of Voldemort by creating an evidence based financial report, and I was able within, like, 20 minutes to have, a conversation and I'd come to settlement with him, And that essentially was the beginning of my company, divorce analytics, 8 years ago, I had a mission to help people replace their fear with facts, and that's what I do today, which is really empowering, especially for my, I know some of my clients, but I a lot of people that are just, like, I don't know how to understand the numbers, and that's actually the thing that's keeping them stuck. Because their lawyer is, you know, may not be financially minded or as clear about what those terms look like, and then they get... They get stuck. And so I I was wondering if there... You know, if you have a definition or a working definition around financial coercion or financial control.

Well, so a lot of times in abusive relationships, there are the emotions that are being manipulated, but then your abuser takes a step further and starts using your money to control your anatomy. Autonomy. Sorry. So Yeah. That's really what financial coercion is to me when someone starts using money to limit your behavior or create a reward system that places them at the pinnacle, and inadvertently they become your boss.

And then they use money to be the metric in which they keep you under their thumb. And as you are going throughout the process of leaving them, Not only do you have the initial and the normal financial operations around divorce, you also have the psychological hurdle to overcome because they have used money, to keep you frozen in fear and supporting them in the relationship. Yeah. Yeah. Right before we got on, we were talking a bit about how under employment is a way to control or non employment is a way to control and Okay.

I think that a lot of times, we and we think, like, you know, when we see movies in media, we think, oh, the the man is the work 1 and the woman and this user relationship is the 1 who's not, but a lot of times, that's not it... Like, I mean, I have to say out of my clients. I it's probably more women than men are their bread winter. Brad, I I wanna say it's like 60 40, And, of course, there's some women that I work with that, like, their husband worked and that that was, you know, obviously, an element of control as they stayed with the kids, But I I want to look at that kind of that that framing. When when there's 2 people in a relationship, and 1 is unemployed and it's not like they're unemployed and the other partner is, like, completely okay with it because they're carrying their weight in all these areas and it's an agreement.

It's more like, they consistently stay unemployed or under unemployed or, like, are unwilling to get a job just to get a job. That keeps the other person feeling really trapped and stuck, but also exhausted. Oh, yeah. And, you know, abusers will use, like, key... Life tools to keep you trapped.

So it's, like, sleep, you know, your money, you know, access to health care. But really what it comes down to is keeping you in a position that they can manipulate. And when somebody is under void, they're increasing the amount of hours you have to work. So you have less time to focus on their behavior. And, you know, you also have less time to figure out how to get away from that...

Them. Mh. And if you're giving up your sleep, you're fundamentally altering your body's resilience level and putting yourself at a decreased state. So they have more atom opportunities because if they're not working, they're probably napping, maybe playing video games or working on their hobby. But what they're not doing is keeping a routine and actually pulling their own weight.

Mh. So a lot of the times, I have seen this manifest in relationships where women are the high net worth or the the bread winner, and the man, you know, he maybe is not fully employed, but somehow he still runs all of the money. Yeah. Oh, she makes it, and then he spends it. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Or, like, I think, you know, I obviously, you know, on the emotional side, I have clients that are very exhausted that they need, you know, or they're in tough job situations that not expecting the way that they think and act and parent and free and take care of themselves, but the other person isn't... Does not find it does not take any initiative to get something more stable to help. It's almost as if like, it's an...

A become... And, like, I've seen this a lot where it's, like, unspoken that Mh. That she's just expected to work even though law this is going on. Oh, yeah. Well, the thing is he's not a partner.

And we have to dis abuse ourselves because even though he looks like a man. He has the cheekbones of a God, and he's, you know, beautifully tall. Whatever it is. They're still children. Mh.

And they create this hard conundrum because we think that, you know, they look like adults, they should behave like an adult. But they are emotionally stunt at whatever age their trauma occurred, and when they... You know, that's when the brain stops and goes into protective mode. And now they have lived their lives, developing these negative coping strategies. So instead, generally, an abuser has some level of discomfort regarding...

Let's say, they know they are under unemployed, And their mind goes to... Well, I, you know, shouldn't change my life, but I need more resources, so they might encourage you as the working spouse to reach higher. So they can continue to stay in their, you know, in immature state, not take on additional responsibilities, but then also benefit from attaining you know, that status in life that you only get when you've been employed for a long period of time and, you know, have a stable income. So they use financial coercion by not working outside of the home or under employment to really make it harder for you to leave. That's what it comes down to.

Yeah. And that... A really important thing is, like, so I hands down to the best spousal to support equations in all of America I owe my dad on that. Like, I literally have a 17 step formula that I follow, some of it is financial concerns, most of them, are non. But really, when I'm looking at this, it boils down to 4 main financial factors depending on your state obviously, that runs to it.

But, you know, the fourth thing that really is the most important financial consideration is the recipient of spousal supports earning capacity. Mh. Now. Mh. This does not mean what they are currently making.

And this means what they could be if they actually put their nose to the Grinds stone. Right? Spousal support ends up becoming a very a hot button topic because, you know, you're having to already pay for your kids is, you know, education, and whatever it is, because your spouse can't contribute, or they spend their money on booze or whatever, but it creates this balance of power. And so now as you're facing divorce, you think, oh my god. Not only am I going to have to shoulder all of these things by myself, I'm then going to have to take care of him, Side of that.

And if he is able to work on his own. There is no reason why he can't. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Courts are going to look at him and say, oh, honey. You mean you are, like, 40 years old, you have a college education and you're... Choosing to, you know, do Uber. No. Like, you you can do Uber, but when we do spousal support calculations, we're going to imp your income at a hundred and 50000 dollars instead of the 20 you're making right now.

Because that's what you could be earning. So, you know, a lot of the narratives around income and the family need to really be examined when you're going through a divorce. Financial coercion has been used to create bars on your window, and now we need to break those bars down because they're false. They are made out of plastic. Right.

You know, Right. And I think, I, you know, I think it's empowering. Like, if I... If you know what the number is to then do the work to wrap your head around that because mh. Like, if you then...

You're not working with just the idea of it's gonna be... I'm gonna have to do this and this sucks? It's like, okay. But this is the number. Right?

Let's work around that number? Right? What does that number mean? Where would you live? What would that look like?

What would what would need to change and shift? In order for you to be free from all of this. Right? Knowing knowing that, you know, this isn't just... He gets paid this forever, but it's, you know, this this is what this is what we can do to help you get, like, to get out of this and wrapping your mind around that this is it this is just 1 of the realities of Family court, it will be a number, and then it will change.

And you said something so important, Jessica. Mh. This is not going to last forever. Yeah. Yeah.

And if you stay an an unhappy marriage that is abusive of... That is a fate worse and deaths. Mh. And honestly, creating creating a financial landing pad for your partner is going to really help you cut down on a lot of the drama associated with a narcissistic divorce. And I think that's probably what I help my clients do the the best is help them navigate a dis regulated partner that has no idea how to manage their money emotions.

But You have to essentially help them throughout this process. Like, divorce is not gonna be fair for you, especially if you are dealing with, an abusive partner. Right? They already expect you to do all of the work because you probably already have throughout the marriage. You know, it's not just finances that people used to control others.

You know, it's unhealthy work life balances where, you know, you're not only having to make all the money you have to then navigate all of the kids activities on top of that. And but by the way, when you come home, you have to make dinner too. There's no, reciprocity within the relationship. Right. And Honestly, money has the best documentation trail of abuse.

Meaning because it's right there on your account statements. 1 of the hardest things that I deal with is my... I I have a lot of clients that have been through domestic violence incidents and the courts are not moved by what has happened to them. It just takes a ponder of evidence. Yeah.

And the thing with financial coercion and abuse is it's right there. If it happens once, it's very easy to identify. And then we can reconcile that. But there is so much that you have to be mindful of when you are going through this toxic divorce. It's not gonna be easy.

You're going to have to go above and beyond to deal with the divorce process options, But then when it comes to the psychological components of it, it's so important to be working with a coach like Jessica that can help you understand how to tough up and create boundaries because when you've gone through our relationship where you aren't afforded the luxury of spending the money you make. Mh. And it's really hard to create a post divorce financial situation where you feel empowered. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, you said something that was really powerful when we were just chatting before, and I wrote it down, you... They're... You're not used to having your own needs. Yeah. It's insane.

I need I still have to check in and do some healing on this myself, but part of my money trauma is that I don't feel worthy that I should spend money on myself. Mh. And Yeah. It's so hard for me to admit that, But I, you know, I dated this guy right after Voldemort, and I was dumb, and I bought us it was fantastic, but it was, like, we got to drive tanks for a day. And it was a wonderful trip, but then when I took a step back, and I'm like, this asshole won't even buy me sparkling water, And he's an attorney.

I know he makes good money. And here I am throwing my hard earned money away on a trip for both of us when I could have used that to, you know, save or done something else with. And so... It took something like that for me to realize that if I am continuing to use my money in an un fashion, I am going to attract Voldemort 2. Mh.

And it's hard because I was gas lit, I... You know, even though both of us made substantial amounts of money when I was with Voldemort, he was irresponsible. Like, dramatically irresponsible. He just wanted dis spend his money on, like, wine women and song, I guess, not me, other women. So I had to be not only the provider in the household, but I had to go without.

And I had to go through this transition where that man is no longer in my life. I am not going to accept people that don't show up for me. And I have realized that how someone interacts with money is generally how they're going to interact with other relationships in their life. Most money wounds are from, childhood trauma. Yeah.

And it's very much so similar to why we gotten into these narcissistic stake and toxic relationships to begin with for me. It was because that was what I was used to in my, you know, family household growing out. So, yeah. My dad was amazing. My mom was just regulated.

I picked a just regulated partner. Yeah. Yeah. Well... And III like what you said though about, like, looking at how they handle money and then how that relates to how they actually show up and maybe even who they are in a relationship.

Right, if they're avoiding, work. They're avoiding, like, doing something that might seem inconvenient to them, you know, having a job, You know, things that we need to do to exist in society. And then feeling like, almost scaling, like, entitled to not have to do it. Right? III dated somebody who made, like, a lot of money and then but he spent it all all the time.

And, like, then he would, like, have all this anxiety and then would want help. And then I would try and help. And then he would still go into, like, I... And then I'd be like, I wanna be your mom, you know, but I can help you get organized, but I can't... I don't wanna manage it.

But then you need all these decisions that were, like, contrary to, like, you know, the many hours I spent talking through the plan, and it was just always like, you don't actually wanna work on this to you. So I have found based off of my personal experience in dating. You know, men will be willing to tell me whatever it is, and they'll go through, gosh, I... Things I wouldn't just to have the opportunity to potentially sleep with someone. Right?

And this comes into play when they're asking for help because we get to feel like we're really, you know, they're elevating us to a trusted adviser and they get to create some type of, you know, trust with us, and that's essentially what we need to sleep with someone. But then they get what they want, you know, we think we're forming this wonderful relationship with them. But if you take a step back, you have to look at who that person is if you don't wanna waste your time. Mh. Yeah.

And I have found that the best way to really learn who someone is is by how they manage their money. If they are generous, they're gonna be, you know, good tip. They aren't going to, you know, shy away when there's a Valet. You know, they're not going to stick you with the bill or maybe they'll talk about things up upfront. But if somebody comes from a place of lack, and if they are more in it for a transactional relationship.

They're going to use money as a method to extract the last bit of value out of an event or out of a transaction, whether it's good or bad. So this might show up, when you got to eat with somebody and let's say, everything was great, but then they complain at the end, so the the restaurant knocks and percentage off the bill, or they don't have their wallet. Or, you know, they just assume that you're going to pay. A lot of this kind of shows up in the earlier stages of a relationship around money because there's so... It's really this trojan horse in the room.

Right? And you have to address it Otherwise, it's going to, you know, impact your relationship down the road. But if you can really be mindful with how that person is using my name. Mh. You can Yeah.

Find out who they truly are, so you can move forward and not date the autistic cycle passes Right. Like I can do. Yeah. Right. Right.

And so, like, and, like, I like that. It's, like, a data system that's outside of the emotions, you know, because, it's, like, more. It's... It's like, oh, I can look at this and use it as information rather than trying to decipher, like, the red flags in these other ways that are harder, especially, you know, coming out of abuse. Yeah.

For sure. I I... There's a question on the tip of my tongue, and I wanted to come back. Okay. Oh, I wanna I wanna touch on when somebody doesn't have access to documents.

So I'll, I'm gonna lay out the theme that is coming up for a few of my clients then Awesome. I'll, because I think that will just be helpful. But my... So avoiding discovery requests. Seems to...

No. The narcissist is, favorite tool. It is my least favorite tool because as... You know, you and I know. We don't really do that and, like, that's not really how, you know, when I when I look up integrity in the dictionary, the example is not, do not send us discuss...

Do not... Not send the required documents to the court when you are supposed to. But that seems to be a very common theme, and then it continues and it continues, and it well, people back from actually being able to move forward in a lot of ways without obviously the subpoena But then... But I'd... Like, the part 2 of this is, so that's something I'm seeing happening a lot.

And then I'm model... Also... I mean, obviously, like, there's motions to compel and there's all these things, and it doesn't always happen. But the the other side of this coin is there's also for those that do work and control the money and don't, you know, even if or control your money or whatever and you really are not queued into the finances because it has been controlled. And, you know, and you don't know how many credit cards they have, and you don't know how much debt there is.

And, like, you actually don't know what your name is on. Like, that that creates So then you go to your lawyer and they're, like, fine weekend subpoena, and you're, like, I actually don't know what to subpoena. What we're taught when I became a high conflict divorce coach. It was, really... You know, before you actually leave the house, obviously take pictures of everything, you know, anything that you can find, you know, like, you know, really get...

Like, I remember, I had this 1 client, and her, you Now he now puts her now x, which is great. Had, he just was, like, living off of debt honestly, Like, literally, just piling on credit card debt. Yeah and Guy I said, you know, look you look I need you to go find the credit cards, and she sent me a shoe box. Pull my god the box of credit cards. And I was like, oh my god.

And she was like, do I actually have to write down all these numbers, and I was like, oh, yes. Yeah. Yeah. You do. Now.

Well, yeah. So this goes beyond the pale. Yeah. I see straight up financial abuse. And that is the hardest thing for attorneys to navigate because they do not have personal finance training.

Yeah. Like, their job is to be your mouthpiece in court. And to help you negotiate. And so you absolutely have to work with a certified divorce financial analyst to put together what your balance sheet is and to develop a proposal. And a lot of the times I work with the non financially in spouse, and so do have to essentially reconstruct everything.

The 1 thing I would always lead off with is mo people have... They generally know a little bit more than what they think they do. Mh. And so we always begin by just kind of writing, just brainstorming and just figuring out what they think they, you know, don't know, and then we kind of reverse engineer it. But, a good place to begin is with your tax return.

Now this is only going to give you information of dividend producing assets that you have to be, pay tax on. So, it's not comprehensive, but at least gives us a starting point. Mh. You know, it's a good point. Yeah.

Yeah. And if you still living with that person, you can't open their mail, but you can certainly, open the envelope if it already is cracked. Right. You have the opportunity as long as you are in a safe position because let's be honest. We are not talking about normal human beings in this situation that you guys are married to.

I because if we were, you could say, hey. I'm very curious. Like, you know, I see the last chase bill. Yeah. Exactly.

Exactly. Yeah. And that's, you know, something else that we always have to be mindful love. You might be in a much more dangerous situation than you realize because this type of behavior has been so normalized. Yeah.

Oh, always, you know, take a step back if you have a trusted friend or really a divorce coach is gonna be your best bet, you know, work with them on this, I have clients, you know, their house is booked. Yeah. You know, even figuring out, like, I had 1 client come to me through her neighbor because the house was under surveillance, we had to then... Meet on the trail. Yeah.

Yeah. You have to be very aware of who you were dealing with. They are going to be a little bit more dangerous than most people. So you have to be very methodical. So if you are dealing with somebody who is physically abusive of that's gonna be a different set of instructions and definitely reach out to the national domestic violence hotline, But if you can do some work when you're within the house, you know, go through their paperwork.

If you find that there is, you know, accounts take pictures of that. But the more you can do while you're still living with them as long as it's safe, it's definitely going to pay off in the long run. But, unfortunately, there are no divorce police that come out and say you have to do this or that. Yeah. An issue contempt of 4 orders and they can drum in jail.

But that doesn't mean you they're gonna get the credit card records at the end of the day. Right. Exactly. And so that's where you have to make really hard decisions and figure out, like, what what is going to be the cost of potentially getting this asset if it even exists. Right?

And oftentimes, I work with my plans to really rebuild their financial stability and become that economic powerhouse and their post divorce life. You know, when you get out of the divorce, you're gonna be able to make more money. So because you're not unhappy because you aren't dealing and with an abuser out at home. You can relax finally. So your income possibility is truly endless.

And staying and fighting for something that you might not be able to ever find you know, you really have to be mindful if that's the path you're going to take because you can end up spending a lot of money to potentially not get what you want in the end. I think that's... I think that's a really really good point. You know, And, like, because a lot of a lot of clients, especially the ones that I work with, what... Where they're...

Where they want to spend the money and they're willing to spend the money is on the kids. Like, if it has to do with the children's safety or custody or, you know, any of that is where the money spent. But, like, when it comes to other things, it's not, you know, but there there are cases, of course, we're, like, that's not the factor, and it's, like, they... You know, it's... I want the house or I want you know, like, no.

He's not getting, you know, what I work so hard for, and it's, like, well, I mean, the reality is he might depending on a lot of factors. You know, Like, you said and so, let's figure it out. And, honestly, give it to him. Yeah. It's not worth it.

I mean, seriously because this is, like, Honey, you are the best thing that has ever happened to this dude hands down. I don't care what he's saying to you. Like, there is no way he's going to have lightning strike twice, and he's going to get another badass ass woman taking care of him again. You know? So you...

Are this economic powerhouse and you need to remember that. And let him go. Honestly, I loved my house. I was so obsessed. And, like, he was...

Well, Voldemort was doing it his, like, thing with his death eaters running around down, being skinless, and I put all of my effort into that house, and I loved it more than I loved him. But in order for me to get rid of him, I knew he was never gonna leave the house willingly. I knew that, as much as I love the house, keeping it. After I looked at the math, it was not going to serve me. It was too much property.

I didn't wanna be my own, you, like, yard grew. I didn't wanna spend, you know, thousands of dollars a month for somebody to cut my freaking grass and into mow... Or to deal with the pond and whatever. So I took a step back and I'm like, okay, either you can buy it from me or we can sell it. And we elected to sell it.

And in the end, it was the best thing ever because I had a blank slate. I didn't have our marriage Maus to remind me of all the times he beat me. I didn't have to, you know, sage it. I I was always saying it, but it's still bad shit happened. Right.

Right. Right. Exactly. You have to, like, fall in love with your post divorce vision. And that's what Jessica can help you do because you're so stuck in this narrative because he's created it.

Then are responsible for everything in his world and your kids and then oh, by the way, if there's enough left, your needs maybe might get met, but probably not. So don't even think about it. Right? And now you have to create another way of thinking. We didn't go into, and I I'm sure Jessica has on another podcast, but, trauma bonding, Yeah.

Which is... Yeah. Also known as stockholm syndrome, which is when you fall in love with your kid. This is a real thing. And I have a theory that women, you know, gosh, you know, a thousand years ago, men were ro around and tribes killing each other and then they were taking the women as the spoils of war and doing, you know, bad things and reproducing.

And as a result of that, women had to learn to to remain with or to reproduce and to raise the children of the men who just killed their husbands. Yeah. And I believe that is the biological, underpinning for a trauma bond. So now that we live in modern times, we don't have this... You know, ro band of you know, big going around.

Mh. Our brains are still set up that way. You know, we have to actively create a system to allow our brains to thrive in. Otherwise, it slips back into that survival mode. So creating a solid vision and working to that actually is going to help you reclaim your power.

Financial coercion is all about keeping you underneath their thumb and preventing you from taking those next steps to become empowered. Mh. Yeah. And, like, I I always I wrote down. Before we started when I, like, writing some notes about just it's a lot of times what I see in the emotional side is, like, the more confusion they create around this, whether it's like, I can't get a job.

I don't want a job or I don't know or I'll give it to you on Saturday or, like, whatever it is it really shows, like, by creating confusion and chaos, like, through control that they cut... They... Like, there's... It's always... It never makes sense because it was never intended to make sense.

Oh, exactly. Oh, okay. So I am constantly media high conflict divorce. And I always find it interesting when I'm working with the couple, to see how, like, the the words he uses to control her. And so that narcissist is always using word vomit essentially, and they're saying outrageous stuff to get you dis regulated and to knock you off what you were going to say, so they can now take control back over the conversation.

Right? You have to really learn what your triggers are, and especially if you are going to be in a c parenting relationship because they're still going to be that person. Yeah. What's going to change is you. Yeah.

I purposely didn't bring up child support, but because we'd be here until tomorrow. Yeah. But also, a lot of that's also, I think and a lot of it was not a lot of times it's out of our control because there's you know, the formulas and things like that. It goes off of. But but, yeah, like, knowing the behavior seeing the behaviors.

And I really just wanna highlight something you said that I think is so important is like, you often know more than you think you often have access to more than you think, like, you just, like, you know, and if if it's a short window of time, make a plan, you know, you send copies of things, like, you know, digital to other people to hold on for you. Like, there's always something you can do, but, like, talking to Victoria or talking to me? Talking to somebody who is certified in this is probably a good resource to at least get started and understand, like, okay. How do we begin to gain back that control. In ourselves and, like, that trust in ourselves and and use it rather than, you know, we don't have to stay stuck.

I know you offer a free consult, Victoria and I do too. And I'm always happy, you know, to use that time to share what choices you have. Yeah. Like, the most important thing for you to remember is that this is not something you have to do alone. And I get it.

I wanted... My Christmas picture to actually be true and realize. Mh. But it wasn't. It was just a facade, and it's easy for us to look at everyone else's life and see the Instagram worthy, you know, presentation, but it is so much more messy.

Yeah we died. And you know, it doesn't matter if you make 5 dollars or if you make 500000000 dollars. These are issues that impact every 1 of us. They know no social or economic ceiling or boundary. Yeah.

Yeah. Victoria, I loved diving into this with you. I know that we'll do this again. I would love if you could share how people can find you, you know, and what and what you do, I, I noticed that you touched a few times about on being a mediator, and I'm actually looking to become 1 too. So that's exciting.

To... I guess, we both were doing it. But I I would love if you could just share a little bit about that, so that what people want to find you for you know, either resource that they they know where to go. For sure. Well, my firm is divorce analytics, and you can find us online at divorce analytics dot com.

I also am on Instagram at divorce analytics, but our goal really is to provide youth financial services for not only or divorce, but for moving forward, throughout this process as you rebuild. I serve either for 1 person or I do do mediation Specifically, I'd like to work with families that are in this high conflict space. Mh. Shocker, there's not a lot of professionals that are actually skilled and qualified to handle this, and it's truly worth. Yeah.

I know. Yeah. I mean, I had the training with my mom and then Voldemort. So I've been doing this. My whole life.

Yeah. Yeah. But at the end of the day, narcissist and, you know, psycho paths are still people. And when you know how to communicate with them, yeah, they... They have their pre and you might have to communicate a little differently, they're easy to understand.

Mh. And The problem is, well, for them, it's great for thing for us, they fit patterns. And once you have seen 1 operate, you pretty much have seen them all. There is not a lot of creativity. And Yeah I have been in this space for the last 8 years really refining my process that I started with Voldemort, and, being able to help, especially women that already have a lot going on in their life.

They need support because divorce is 100 percent of business transaction. And, you know, as Jessica said, we could be here for another 5 days if not longer. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, as you go through about this, you have to understand, you need to put together a global settlement proposal.

Otherwise, that high conflict person is going to drag you all around court and just to... That long disclosure process. And there is a way around it, but you have to lay the groundwork in the initial stages at the divorce process. Yeah. Obviously there's a lot that goes into this, and if you are dealing with the added complexities of a high conflict situation, just know that it's even more important for you to communicate your situation to a high conflict, specialist in professional.

There's certain things that you're going to have to do in the initial stages that will really set you up for success. Otherwise, you'll end up in diverse divorce purgatory and have, like, a 10 year long divorce but you've only been married for 2 years. Yeah. And and you look like to... I like how you said full global resolution because Mh.

So much bray that you can work on and to work through. I do this time with clients. I'm sure you do it on the financial side, and I probably do it on the kids side. That let's eliminate as much gray as we possibly can so that you're not finding yourself in and out of court all. And you really only have 1 chance to do your financial settlement right.

I mean, with the kids, you can make custody modifications, but at the end of the day, if your spouse def you, it's not exactly straightforward if you're gonna be able to recoup those funds. I have seen it go both ways in some cases, it's very surprising. Because courts at the end of the day, they're very overwhelmed, they don't have a lot of time for family law matters, and they really would like you guys to resolve the outside of court. If you you know, don't have the right documentation in place it's gonna be a miserable process. What I see a lot of high icons people do is they get you to make concessions without you...

Without them giving you anything. Mh And that is a big pet peeve of mind, if you are, you know, every little thing that you do, you need to have equal consideration for that person, and that's why putting together a global settlement proposal is so important. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Attorneys like what we just said. Hi. And the high conflict people for you to give concessions with without... We'll give... We'll force you to give concessions without giving anything in return and without you realizing.

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Well, and then the thing is, you go to ask them to give you a consideration and they're like, oh, god. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Not fair. Well this whole process has then you're not putting to me and you want me to give you, you know, 1 extra weekend a month. Hell know.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

So a lot of divorce is horse trading, and that's why writing it down and being prepared is going to serve you best in the long run. Yeah. Well, like I said, I would obviously love to do this with you again. We should probably book more time so we can share it before, but I will share the links in the show notes so that people can find you. But thank you again for joining me today.

I really... I always enjoy talking to you about this because you get both. Sides. It's the finance side, but also the high complex side. Yeah.

Well, thank you for having Me on. It's always a pleasure with you, Jessica. Of course. Alright. I will talk to you soon.

Sounds good. Bye bye. Sides