Coercive Control with Dr Christine Cocchiola

Coercive control is an invisible form of abuse that traps victims in a web of psychological manipulation and domination. In this episode, Dr. Christine—a survivor, protective parent, and advocate—unpacks the strategies abusers use to exert power without physical violence. From understanding the parallels between coercion and tactics used in totalitarian regimes to exploring the cultural and societal roots of abuse, this episode provides a comprehensive look at how coercive control impacts individuals.

Dr. Christine shares her journey and offers practical tools for identifying coercive control, presenting evidence effectively in family courts, and navigating the legal system.

You can learn more about Dr. C here:
https://www.coercivecontrolconsulting.com/

Transcript

Welcome to the you're not crazy podcast. Hosted by Jessica Knight, a certified life coach who specializes in healing from narcissistic and emotional abuse. This podcast is intended to help you identify manipulative and abusive behavior, set boundaries with yourself and others and heal the relationship with yourself, so you can learn to love in a healthy way. You can connect with Jessica and find additional resources, content and coaching at emotional abuse coach dot com. Hello, and thank you for joining me today.

Today, we have a very special guest, Doctor Christine. Doctor Christine is not only a licensed clinical social worker an educator, but She's also an internationally recognized expert in course of control and trauma. She has over 20 years experience as a professor and as a board member of the national coalition against domestic violence. She talks about this in the episode, but she's been an advocate against domestic violence since she's been 19. Doctor C is a leader in research education advocacy, of course, of control.

And it's devastating impact on individuals and children. In this episode, we dive into course of control, how it shows up and affects people, and what parents can do if they're recognizing it in their children. Doctor Sees share some of her personal experience as a survivor or force of control and as a protective parent, whether you're just learning about what workforce of control is or you saw it in some of the recent laws in your state. You're navigating something that is extremely complex and somebody like Christine who is so passionate about her work and what she does and awareness and advocacy, has tons of resources that are available, whether it's on Youtube her website or her Instagram or other forms of media and podcasts to help you understand what's going on to begin to connect the dots when thing I wanna say before we dive into the episode, is that very recently, a lot of my clients, either their high conflict divorce or emotional abuse clients that are trying to recover from what they're experiencing and their relationships or understand what's going on, we have been talking a lot about how to get the family court to see courts of control because for those who don't know this something becomes case law when it's been appealed.

And there have not been any cases that have used cor control and that either end it's gone that far just yet. And so I don't feel that many lawyers actually understand what course of control actually is or how to frame it. Like, their brains are trained to think other ways, not this way. And so something I've been doing a lot for people is connecting the dots between course of control. Literally by reading the messages.

Most of the time in o or our family wizard or emails and pulling out the patterns of behavior and connecting into how that's course of control at the very least to share with your attorney. Because if your attorney sees it, then they may handle your case differently and understand why you are wanting specific things in your agreement, why you are pulling out all the stops on, you know, some of these some things that they just may not understand why you're fighting so hard for things to be so specific, and a lot of this work has come to me recently. I mean, I don't enjoy seeing so people suffering but I do enjoy Feeling like, I can... Help because when we're in the trauma brain, we can't think about it. We can't think about, you know, we don't really see what's actually happening our...

You know, and it's also our experience. Right? If I was to sit here and say I could do this for my own experiences that that would be false. So I I think I would have a really hard time. When I try and explain the abuse that I've gone through as a child, I have a hard time.

And so being able to help people either understand the pattern and see them for themselves, communicate this to their attorney in a way that they understand or organize documentation has become a piece of my work that I feel like helps create an impact in understanding and communicating about ports of control because I do believe that if 1 lawyer sees it once, and then someone else sees it again, and then it continues to come up as this is a theme, then it will start to be talked about more. And what we want is awareness and change. Wanted to share that before we dive in. You know, as you know, you can always find me at emotional abuse coach dot com or high conflict divorce coaching dot com, You can find me on Instagram at emotional abuse coach, and you can email me at jessica at jessica coaching dot com. All of doctor Sees links, which I'm sure you're going to be typing in to your phone or computer as you listen to this will be in the show notes.

She's so many amazing resources and I have shared as many as I could, but I highly recommend looking into the work that she does if you need support. Here's the. So... Hi, Doctor. Hi.

Good morning. How are you? Good. How are you? I'm okay.

Thanks for talking with me again. Thank you. And I apologize for having to switch, but I did get to hug up Mate mateo and Be Clock and Peter Levine. So... Oh my god.

That's awesome though. That's awesome. Totally. Yeah. Totally worth it.

You think that was none of them I would have understood that you need. But. But no. No worry. Thank you so much.

I'm happy to have you. Can you introduce you and tell us what you do? Sure. So my name is Christine C, and I have a doctor in clinical social work? I worked under the true edge of Doctor Evans Stark, who was the propeller of the term course of control.

I'm a full time college professor teaching social work and have been doing this work as a social justice advocates since the age of 19. Mh. I always like to highlight that because I didn't know. I was a victim. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. So so you can be doing this work. I am a successful. You know, I I I'm a licensed clinical therapist and you can be doing this work and still not recognize entirely the insidious nuanced nature of c control.

If it is not physical. So course of control can be physical, But if it is not physical, you can certainly miss the signs, and and I certainly did. I certainly did. Yeah. Yeah.

And I actually... My first introduction to you ever, I believe was about... 2 years ago. I was deep diving this cult podcast. And I forgot the name of it.

I I it's on the tip of my tongue, but I can't A little bit cult. A little bit cult. Yeah. I'll put it in the show notes so people can find it, but and it you talk a lot about your story. And I remember, I clicked on it, and I didn't know what it was about and then my...

Like, I've been working in this field for that, you know, longer than that, And I was like, oh my god. Why have I not... Heard this term before. Yeah. Yeah.

It's a relatively new term our or vernacular. However, it's been around literally since the beginning of time. Think about that. Like, abuse about power and control. I mean, when you think about any kind of abuse.

You know, someone is gonna harm an animal, it's about trying to control that animal. Right? And so, you know, if someone's gonna harm a child, it's about trying to get the child to listen. Right? Like, it's...

It's always about power control. I think about things such as racism, sexism. Like, the reality is is is core of control is the underpinning in my opinion of all abuse, and it is about exerting power control over an individual. Or a group of individuals. It can be, you know, again, racism.

You know, where does not come from? That comes from a core belief that someone, some people believe that due to their color the their race. They actually have an ability to absorb power and control over others. And so you know, it's definitely based in patriarchy, and and by the way, that doesn't mean that all men are bad. Right?

What it means is that our world is really conditioned to believe in this idea of inequality versus equality. And so we have raised boys and girls to believe that 1 gender, has more power over another gender. And, you know, if you add religion in there, right if you add if you add cultural beliefs in there. Oh, my gosh. It can get really oppressive.

I think about some of my first generation clients who maybe have come from the Dominican or from, you know, maybe perhaps like Cuba or other countries in the world where there is not a progressive ideology. They truly believe they are... You know, there's this mach, like men are in positions of power, woman need to cooperate in a align in religion foster that. Yeah. So, you know, so certainly, this idea that, you, know, understanding that cor controls the underpinning of it all, and it it certainly can be physically violent.

It certainly can be, but abusers don't show up being physically violent initially. They just don't. I mean, they show up oftentimes as Char as as looking or appearing to be amazing human beings. They could be, you know, the local plumber. They could be a school guidance counselor or My exes.

They can... I mean, it it they can be a college professor. This is this is about having a pathology that really you're you're so willing to hide your shame that you are going to present as someone who appears healthy And in that, you're able to lure people in into your, I call it the course of control web, you know, it's it's a web of coercion and control that you don't even know is happening until it's too late. And, I I wanna go back to the word comes out of Vitamins work, the word coercion comes out of Vitamins work. He was researching prisoners of war under totalitarian communist regime during the Korean war.

And he wanted to research and figure out why these prisoners would often align or ac with their bright. And you know, the reality is is all you have to do is throw someone a bone or a bread crumb. And frankly, we become trauma bonded, and we want so badly to believe that someone maybe is not so harmful that we are immediately reverting back to a relationship dynamic that's healthy. That's unhealthy, excuse me. And so, you know, feminist psychologist called this intimate terrorism when it happens in intimate relationships, and, Susan Sc, a social worker, such as myself, actually coined the term, c control in 19 82, I believe, and she was the first person to see the intersection between child abuse and domestic abuse.

We have to understand that any children living in these fam situations is being abused, and there's only 1 person at fault and it is the predator. It is the perpetrator of coercion and control. Stay with us. We'll be right back. Have you ever wondered that house?

Some people managed to turn life toughest challenges into something extraordinary. On sole matter, we explored the incredible stories of resilience and transformation. Every episode I sit down with a remarkable individual with faced great struggles, such as domestic abuse, terror attacks, addiction, prison and illnesses. And emerge stronger with a purpose to help others rise above their own battles. Soul matter isn't just a podcast.

It's a celebration of the human spirit. A reminder that no matter what you've been through, the power to overcome is within us all. Listen to soul matter on your favorite streaming platforms and join us as we reflect, transform ends inspire because every story has the power to change life even yours. Thank you so much for for sharing that, But and also touching on the... With the prisoners of War because you talk about that in the Ally certification program that I finished last week.

That's on your website, and I'm sure people will want to go look it up, but you talk about in there, and I remember I was listening to this. And I remember pausing it. I kept going back because you mentioned some of the statistics in the training, and I was just, like, Like, it just sort of, like, really, like, hit it hit home thinking about, you know, myself or my clients or the people that listen to this podcast that feel like prison prisoners of war, a lot of the time in their own homes, And, like... But then they... They're the ones that are...

You know, I think you said something in the in the Allied training, like 90 90 percent or something like that, just they they end up switching sides or, like... And giving the information or whatever... Like they get they are forced into. Right. Right.

And it, you know, so what Vitamin was able to determine is that it's actually, like a scale. And if the top scale is, I I... You know, you get accused of something. Right? And at the top of the scale, the victim says, no.

Absolutely not. They didn't do that. Like, that didn't not happen. And then as the coercion conversion continues and the isolation, the intimidation, the gas, sliding. Right?

The manipulation, all of these psychological strategies that are facets, of course, of control. Some people think of course of controls psychological abuse that's not right. That's not correct. Course of controls every single facet of trying to exert power control over another. So it includes psychological abuse, but it also includes physical aggression, sexual aggression.

It can certainly include legal abuse, financial abuse and weapon of the children, So in Vitamins chart, what he talks about is this coercion to eventually like, unbelievably at the bottom of the coercion chart is this the person who literally knew they did nothing wrong. They did nothing wrong. All of a sudden is say, you're right. You're right. I'm sorry.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I did something... You're right. I shouldn't have done that.

I shouldn't done it. They actually fully take on the blame and believe it within their core as a mechanism of sur writ. It which is just, like, literally mind blowing. It's psychological blood. It's like, it's like a torture that occurs.

And it occurs in these intimate relationships. Like, you know, I always wanna point out, like, you know, we know that 35 percent of women suffer violence, in their lifetime. Mh. K. Now, how many women are suffering, non physical c control, aren't suffering physical violence, and we don't have those report cases because Of course, when do things get reported when someone has a physical assault.

Right? Right. So how many women are suffering beyond physical violence, and then how many children are growing up in these family systems? I mean, I think numbers are probably pretty astounding. And what I...

What I always wanna point out is that yes, men are victims. Of course, they are. Mh. Nice people in, you know, gay Lesbian transgender relationships suffer at a... They...

This is a very under privilege. Population, they suffer at great rates. There is no doubt about it. But what I would say in particular about men is that I see over and over again, I I don't agree with the stats because if I I'm am an abuser And I am c her in controlling her for years, months weeks, whatever it is. It doesn't matter.

If I've been inflict this harm, and she is feeling, of course, traumatized because, you know, literally, for your listeners, the brain actually changes. When you're living in town. Yeah. So so so I'm am suffering significant trauma. And then this 1 particular day, you know, you won't let me out of the laundry room because, you know, we're having a fight and you won't let me out.

Know you've done this many times to me before many, many times. But this 1 day, I push back. I push you physically or I, you know, I punch you. I push back. I don't even have to be physical, though.

I could just like, literally try to run. Right? Was gonna ask that. What if you just, like, yeah, like, lee. Like, you just try to leave and the abuser calls 911.

Guess who's on the stats for being in being an abuser? Yeah. The victim. We have we have to recognize that first of all, that's not mutual abuse or reactive abuse. Those words in my opinion are total Bs.

It is self defense. If I am trapped, over and over again in a situation. Physically or otherwise. It doesn't matter. Somebody's gas fighting me over and over again, that is in ent.

And eventually, I'm gonna become dis regulated. Frankly dream always amazed at how not regulated victims and survivors are? How long they would stand the torture. How long can they withstand the torture? Yeah.

And so in this moment, I'm dis regulated finally, I just lose it, and I push back and the abuser calls 911? I'll tell you a quick story. So I... My ex had a pitch I had a I had a a printout of a letter on the refrigerator that literally like, talked all kinds of crap about me. Like, the what a horrible mother I was.

What a horrible human being I was that I was crazy that I was soc. That was all these horrible things. And that letter stayed on the refrigerator from December 20 fifth. When I wasn't even living in the home, but I could go back and visit periodically, and I did. I went every Friday to clean the house, see my puppy because it was my home, and I missed it.

Right? Crazy And this particular Friday in February, I walk in and I see the note on the fridge and he's home. And I wouldn't have normally gone in when he was home, but I had just found out that he had been having an affair for 8 years, and I was felt empowered. I was like, you know, now my children will know who he really is. Right?

Like, it fell to me, like a moment. Like things were gonna shift. And I walked to the house and I saw that note now. I'd seen it now since December. Right?

Never done a thing. I saw that new on the fridge. I walked over to it and I ripped it into shreds. And he called the police on. He said that I had been looking like, that I had abused him.

I took... I I literally ripped up the note and walked out the back door. It was such an amazing moment of empowerment for me. And then the police... And then within 3 weeks, the police were knocking out my door for destruction of property.

And and for, basically, disorderly conduct. They didn't call domestic abuse, but the reality is is that I could have been in the staffs for someone who was a perpetrator. And that's that's the world that victims live in. Yeah. He pushed you in and we call it, like, what is it provoke and, oh, I'm...

I'm forgetting the other word, but it's like you provoke someone to get reaction. And then and then that's exactly what you're looking for. Right? You're looking for the reaction. Yeah.

Yeah. I told a story to a client the other day about. Like, I was moving and this partner, like, he he would constantly throw things. Or, yet, like, he had these big reactions and, like, something fell on me, like, a book or something. And I, like, was frustrated because, like, I mean, he was...

Also wasn't helping me pack, and I, like toss it across the room and he was, like, what is wrong with you and, like, you know, and made, like, this big thing and then left and slammed the door, and I was just, like, out of all the times. I did this out of frustration. It wasn't even about him, but he made it into this big thing about hall rational. I was and couldn't control my anger because a book fell on my head. Yeah.

And I talked across the room. Yes. They're always looking for something to hold against us. They... That's their game.

Right? I mean, you know, we think about the pathology of abusers and and they are they are truly wanting. To ensure that they inflict some kind of pain in some way. That's how they actually feel good sadly and empower. Yeah.

When... So, like, as you're talking about this and, like, the pathology of a abusers, it's bringing up for me how help people do this in the family court system when they are trying, you know, when when they don't have the power and control that they have that they had when they were living, you know, altogether. But what they're trying to do is to, like, it's, like, trying to get you to react at every stage of the game, whether it's to make a mistake to withhold the children, quote, unquote, you know, to respond with an angry email. You know, they they want to see you fail. Right?

And I know so many of the clients I work with, and Sure. I definitely. I felt this way. I feel like, I can't make any mistakes. Like, any mistakes are...

They're not allowed. All of the stuff can happen, but I'm wondering if you could shed some light on, like, the... Because so many people wonder, like, why are they doing this, which doesn't help. Right? Like, it doesn't, like, change it, but, like, I had this client last night and I don't wanna go into the details of what happened for her but she was like, why?

How, what is he getting out of this? You know, And and we sort of went... We went through that, but can you share a bit about, like, in that situation when, like, you know, there is some... Say it as a mom, trying to protect the kids and set boundaries and keep them safe and there. There is a plan, and she's trying to stick directly to an order in this person just key...

Like, it... It's near constant trying to get her to make a mistake so they could say, see Gotcha, Yeah. So so here's the thing. I think it's really important to understand, you know, I was actually just had a retreat this past weekend working with doctor Rama with 250 victims and survivors. Oh, amazing.

And she agrees with, you know, we have... We agree on a couple of things. Okay? And that it... I mean, 1 is that she stopped using the words high conflict after hearing me say, there's no such thing as high conflict.

There's only 1 person drawn towards conflict, and that is a person with a pathology. That truly is about creating harm to other people. And so you can think about it as a spectrum. You know, Like, I mean, most of the victims and survivors I work with, their abusers are 9 and tens out of 10. They're just...

They're just horrific evil, evil evil evil. And then this is people acceptance in Doctor Ram and I talk about this too It's like, we have to radically accept who these people are. And until we do that, they are gonna... They're gonna... Like, once you can radically accept.

I talk about this in my own podcast. Perfect pray. Mh. Like, it almost have to take the 10000 foot view now? Because if you're living in the space of not really recognizing how harmful they are and you keep on thinking maybe they'll improve.

I mean, what do we know about Symptoms and survivors. They have these qualities of accommodating agreeable, you know, loyal for forgiving, they wanna fix things they work hard. They're highly conscientious. We know this from the big 5 personality test. So so given that, If you're living in that space where you're still trying to figure out who this person is and why they behave the way they do, the trauma bond is pretty strong.

And it's gonna be harder for you to recognize what they're capable of. And so once we can say wait a minute. Like, this is, like, really scary evil. You swear shit. Okay?

This is where. Yeah. Then you can... You can swear here. I'm from New york.

And this is a swearing for zone. Okay So once we do that, we can take the 10000 foot view. Yeah. And we can take the 10000 foot view, we are more readily able to predict their behavior. And prepare for it and better protect.

But if we're living behind the 8 ball all the time, then we're gonna be her over and over again. And that... And that's the reality. So it's almost like a it's like, we have to figure out their chess and and level up a little bit, but regarding their pathology, I mean, so, research shows us that some people are born with, I call it, like, they're more ego compromised. They just are not as hardy.

And in that, if they're worn into a... And and and so what we know is that, you know, these traits can be certainly genetic and that there there could be some triggering events to make these these harmful traits come out. And 1 of those harmful, like 1 of the primary way that these harmful traits come out is when a child is not able to feel unconditional love and positive regard. They are not able to be authentically themselves in their family system. And so if that occurs and they already have this propensity and they're born a little bit more compromised, then I call it, like, their shield of shame is gonna grow.

Mh. And the more that I have these experiences in life, we're coping means hiding my shame, not taking responsibility, not not really growing in my empathy building skills, the more that I do that, the stronger that shield of shame becomes. And so that that shield of shame becomes by protector, but it also becomes the thing that separates me from others. And it allows me to... Well, it makes me want to have control over others in their circumstances because if I don't control others than I might lose my shield, and that's really scary for me.

Mh. And so now enter the family core. You're gonna... You divorced me. You're separating from me.

I mean, that is like 1 of the most egregious things against my shield of shame. Like you kidding me, you're rejecting me. You're abandoning me. You don't... You don't truly love me.

And so now my way to cope with that versus saying I as a horrible person or I haven't been good to you or I had in Fidelity, like an a... Like, right? Like in situation. Now my responses is, oh, there's no way you're getting through this shield of shame. I'm gonna blame you for everything I've done.

The accusation becomes the confession, the da tactics of denying, like attacking, reversing victim and offender, and you know what? Frankly, I need to retaliate. I need you to feel so much pain, and I know exactly how to do that. I will financially decimate you, I will make you, like, live your life in this court world where you are constantly triggered and overwhelmed because you know what? You go to court, you gotta see me there Don't you?

I mean, this is actually great for me to control you. And I'm gonna I'm gonna weapon our kids. You know what? I might neglect them. And make you worried about them or I might actually, you know, ind them against you so that they feel safe with you.

These are all of my... In my toolbox of ways that I can inflict harm onto you And, you know what? I'm gonna do it because how dare you? How dare you try to break down my shield or shame. Yeah.

Yeah. They're very harmful individuals. There's recent research out in February 20 24 called they're tetra, And what we are seeing is that, again, norm... Like, in normal interaction with others, we can't tell if they're this harmful. It's only when we engage in more intimate experiences.

That we begin to see what they're capable of. Right? And you know, unless of course, we're overt, a c controller like, you know, I... I'm gonna, like, like, like, the k, like, like, like, maybe people who work, And you know, on the police force who are doing so simply to op press certain in groups of people, not officers, of course. But, you know, those people are more overt, like, we can totally be, like, oh, my gosh, that person's unstable.

Right? They're scary. There's someone I should stay away from. But in intimate relationships, these abusers don't show up necessarily what these signs. Right?

I actually boosted it today, because, I mean, I know we're recording on. I don't know if this go... This goes out afterwards. But today's election day, and I was thinking about all the people, I'm not gonna talk politics and... Specifically, but how many victims and survivors cannot share their opinion about politics and their own family systems.

Yeah. And and so they hide it. Right? And that is c control like the fact that you can't share, and that's like another piece to course of control. Right?

Like, understanding that we lose our agency. We lose our autonomy. Now. I had a... I have a very successful career even before I started doing this...

I mean I've always been doing this work. People people don't realize. I've been doing this since I was 19. I was an advocate for domestic abuse and child abuse since age of 19. But I became hyper focused on educating on of course of control after getting my doctorate.

And, you know, people don't realize that this experience that we have in these systems that the institutional betrayal is also coercion and control. I mean, it's like a trap over and over again for victims and survivors. Yeah. And I think that, you know, a lot of the... When we are learning about cor of control over here about cor of controller, It's in the media or in in I'm in Massachusetts, and there's a...

I believe it's... I... Actually, I believe it's now a law a law course of control. You are a big part of that. Right?

Doctor. C? Yeah. Yeah. I know Jennifer's law, and I testified for Massachusetts also.

Yeah. Actually they have my part of my testimony on my Instagram page because I basically went in there instead of talking about adult victims I talked about what have the children. Yeah. Exactly. It's a very powerful video.

It's about 4 minutes. Long, the 1 that I saw recently, and it's extremely powerful. Thank you. Thank you It's it's through the lines of the children. Right.

I mean, this is the problem is that, you know, victims and survivors are trying to keep their children safe and cod course of control as a form of domestic abuse is paramount. It absolutely is. And that means, you know, you can get restraining orders and he doesn't have to physically or this other person doesn't have to physically violently hurt you in order for you to actually hopefully get protections. But nobody's talking about the psychological trauma to children living and lead homes. It's an una acknowledged child abuse when you have to regulate your behavior every single day when you cannot.

And, you know, we talk... I I I'm gonna be... I have a webinar coming out in January and it's a training on just a... Like, an hour long base, and maybe it'll be longer at this point, but the idea is, you know, so how do we prevent the inter generational trauma? Because if that if coming the abuser couldn't authentically be himself in his own home, and he had to hide who he was.

Mh. Isn't that what's happening to our children when they are living with an abuser. Now, our children have a protect parent who sees it and knows it and gives them the ability to feel love unconditionally and to be authentic, lee themselves. But the problem is is we've got 2 people, a healthy person who's living in trauma, and a really unhealthy person who maybe had trauma as a child, no doubt about it, but listen abuses is of choice. Yeah.

And we think the child in there, which person is gonna have the greatest influence. Because if the abuser has greater influence and the... Child aligns with the ag? Then is that a setup perhaps not a hundred percent, of course, but is that a setup for that child also perhaps take on these traits that are cor and controlling. In order to feel safe?

This is again about safety. So how do we prevent that inter generational trauma? We need protective parents to understand the psychological ram ramifications of living in these situations and I always say to be... Extremely intentional in their parenting. I have a a protective parenting program.

I'm sure but in the show notes, but it's like literally teaching protective parents how to be therapists in their home with children who are suffering una acknowledged, child abuse. I know that we are we're we are close to the end and this is a loaded question. But is there anything specific that you can share if you... If there is a protective parent listening and they, you know, maybe they have yet to sign up for, your program, but they... But they're like, okay.

I feel like the therapist in the home all the time, and I'm trying so hard to help my kids. Is there is there, like, 1 piece of advice or 1 tool that you can share that they can hold on to. Well, let me just first of all say have tons of free content on Youtube, my pockets and, of course, on Instagram and Facebook. Right? So I'm always trying to send out free content.

And if they join my email list, and I have I have free Pdf on my website where I help people guide, you know, their children. So I'm always trying. Like, this is so important to me as I said my work began, but, you know, trying to prevent child abuse. And you know, for me, and makes me actually get a little bit terri, I just thinking about the fact that we have so far to go. Yeah.

And I think about... When I think about... Like, my original work was with sexual abuse and I created a training in Connecticut that was called the stranger you know, and and I'm gonna help that webinar coming out in January also because the reality is is c controllers use the same grooming techniques as child predators, And until we actually can see that and try our best to infiltrate that, children are being harmed. And it's it's impacting their developing brain. An impact, I call it broken brain.

They end up having broken brain. So I think if I were to... I mean, there's a gazillion things that I'd like to teach about, but I think as I say broken brain, I think it's really important for your listeners to understand that if they suffered c control, again, the underpinning of all abuse, It's certainly the you're underpinning of domestic abuse. Right? So if we could change the vernacular and everybody just call it coercion and control or oppression.

Yeah Yeah. And so if they suffered that, they have to assume their children have suffered. Yeah. And then... So that's a huge grieving process by the way.

Right? Like, oh, my gosh. You're telling me my children were are being abused. They're abused. Yes.

They are. Okay? Mh. And then in that. Understanding that the goal of the abuser is just like with the adult victim is to compromise your child's healthy development.

To op suppress your child? Yeah. Yeah. And and in that, if we can begin looking at our children through that coercion and control lens, how does that shift our parenting? Because if I said to you, your child has, I don't know, let's just say they have a broken leg.

Well, we're parenting differently during their recovery. Aren't we... Like, they right sure they... They're getting a little extra special attention. We're being really intentional about making sure they're taking care of themselves.

Right? And so we need to do that with our children who are suffering course of control. They have broken brains. He, the abuser, he or she, I have many clients who have female predators. I do not believe woman have the same political.

They do not have the same political social constructs in society protecting them so that they're not able to op impress at the same rates certainly. But, can be as warm woman can certainly do this. In general, this happens... This is a male credit... Per trading, like, circumstance for sure, and it happens to men by men.

Right? But certainly if we can look at our children as suffering. They don't know their suffering. Yeah. Yeah.

They're just confused. If we can look at their suffering and see their experiences through the course of control lens, then that shifts our parenting. And there's many tools that we can do to support them in this process, but we need to shift our parenting and understand that these are not typical kids. And frankly, again, grieving the fact that we're not... We're not we're not creating children that we had planned on creating.

We're creating children who are... Who are abuse victims frankly. Yeah. It's a really hard thing. It's a really hard thing.

Yeah. Yeah. No. I think I think that's really powerful. And I...

You know, and I know a lot of people they see it and they feel it and they are, like, you know, it's not that my child's dis regulated. That's a that's a symptom of a larger problem, but there's, like, only... You know, I need to figure out how to approach this holistically and see the trial for what they're... Experiencing rather than approaching, like, for approaching it in parts of this thing. This behavior.

This... It's like the whole thing together. Right. Yeah. Absolutely.

I did just want... Because you mentioned a little bit cult. I'm actually gonna be on their podcast in a couple of weeks. Oh, awesome. For follow episode.

So for your listeners to go ahead and listen to that perhaps when on when that comes out. But, yeah. The first episode is really about this idea of sub education and how a abusers really wanna sub their their victims. Right? I appreciate you having me on and having this Oh, thank you.

Yeah. If you can please share, you know, where people can find you, like I said, I'll provide all the links, but, just give us the quick rundown. Sure. Sure. So I'm course of control consulting online.

That's my website. It's under construction, but it should be done shortly, and, but it's available right now. And I'm doctor Ko coachella underscore course of control. Frankly, I was 1 of the new new newest people in the field. So if you kind of look up course of control, you probably will find me on Twitter, or Facebook, etcetera.

But my Youtube also, if if protected parents are looking for guidance and if they have a child, Yeah. Who who's a little bit old it has clarity. The kid gets it. Right? And they they don't wanna see their parent.

There maybe 13 15 whatever. I actually have, a 10 part series on their really short It's called Connect the dots, and it helps children to understand actually what they experienced in that family system. So that they actually, like, can come together and have like, an acknowledgment of the of of their abuse. Right? So, yeah.

But my Youtube channel has other things too. I post about twice a week now. So... Yeah. Absolutely.

Well, thank you so much for all you do. And you absolutely do share tons of free content and I get all of them when they come out, but, you know, I just sorta wanna name it because it's so helpful and it does every time I see your where Christine. I just feel like you just really want to help as many people as possible, and and thank you for that because I think a lot of people feel that way about you too. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate that.

And, you know, maybe if there are any clinicians listening, right or coaches. I also have a clinician and coach training where I teach all about cor of control and the betrayal by the system and understanding what children experience. Yeah. This is like my... Like, you know, I passionate social justice advocate, but I appreciate that you want the accurate information out there, and I re...

We need to see a allies. Yeah. You need. Yeah. We need people who actually get it, and I should mention that I recently published a book framed woman in the family court underworld.

With a coa who... I mean, we, basically amy Cla and I came together to... I said I was at my kitchen table. Last april, I said I've gotta get these stories out there. No 1 would believe them.

Framed And just the reality. And the stories are now anomalies, this is an epidemic. The injustices within the institution... The institutional betrayal happening to all of these protective mothers in particular and their children. So thank you so much.

I appreciate it. Thank you, Doctor. Christine. I thank you so much for joining me, and I know this gonna help so many people. Right.

Thank you so okay.