He Controlled the Money — Now What? with Victoria Kirilloff

Vctoria Kirilloff, Certified Divorce Financial Analyst and founder of Divorce Analytics, brings her sharp expertise, and personal experience leaving an abusive relationship, to help listeners navigate the financial side of divorce with clarity and strategy.

Together, we break down:

• How to start gathering financial information even if you feel completely in the dark
• Why documenting financial coercion can become one of your strongest tools in family court
• What a "global settlement proposal" is and why it can save you time, money, and emotional energy
• How to avoid letting your emotions derail your legal or financial strategy
• The most common myths survivors believe about money — and how to break free from them

Whether you're still in the relationship or knee-deep in legal battles, this episode will give you both validation and direction. 

🔗 Resources mentioned in this episode:

• Free Financial Document Checklist: divorceanalytics.com/free-tools
• Learn more about Victoria’s work at divorceanalytics.com

Transcript

he-controlled-the-money-now-what-with-victoria-kirilloff

[00:00:00] Welcome to the You Are Not Crazy Podcast hosted by Jessica Knight, a certified life coach who specializes. And healing from narcissistic and emotional abuse. This podcast is intended to help you identify manipulative and abusive behavior, set boundaries with yourself and others, and heal the relationship with yourself so you can learn to love in a healthy way.

You can connect with Jessica and find additional resources, content, and coaching@emotionalabusecoach.com.

Thank you so much for being here. Before we dive into today's guest, one of my favorite people, I want to go over my offerings and what that looks like. So if you've been here before, you know you can find me at emotional abuse coach [00:01:00] com or high conflict divorce coaching.com. If you are to book Clarity Call to work with, which is basically just like a quick consult to see if we're a, the dates that are on, show, dates that are further out.

I don't open up all my dates because I do have reoccurring clients and a client base, so the ones that are the availability is, you know, offered sparingly. But if you are kind of ready to get going, you can always email me at Jessica at jessica coaching com and. I usually always have availability and things change, but sometimes I get emails of people saying, you're only available, you know, a month later.

But I, that's just sort of how it is because I do prioritize my current clients, and if you become one, you'll, you'll know that too. I offer one-on-one validation calls, which are basically just a longer one off call if you're not ready [00:02:00] for a coaching commitment or to continue to work together. That's sort of get immediate help and to really do a deep dive on your situation.

And that's available online too. And the same policy applies if you email me. I usually can get you in sooner, but otherwise you can book a call using my website, emotional abuse coach com. I of course is available including how to divorce aist documentation for family court and all.

In my show notes about how to divorce narcissist, various aspects that come up in co-parenting, um, different aspects of the divorce process. I really devoted the month to high conflict divorce in general in all its aspects. And of course, 30 days of post is never gonna cover everything that people experience.

So I will still continue to post about that throughout the remainder of the year. I have been doing a [00:03:00] bit of a topic. So check that out. If you are wanting to learn just more about the process and think through the things that Victoria and I talk about in a deeper way. And so now my guest is one of my favorite people.

She's been on here twice before Victoria. She is a divorce financial analyst and she is. Amazing. Uh, what she does, she has such a relatable way of explaining things. Her newsletters are so good. They're very detailed. It's not like just another piece of junk in your inbox. It's a very detailed action oriented approach.

And what I really appreciate about her too is just how much I can tell that she wants to help. And I'm so glad that I know her and that she in my corner and I really, that you. From this episode, if you need support, like I said, you can always reach out to me. If you support from Victoria, all of [00:04:00] her link will be in, and so you head.

Thank you so much for listening.

Hi Victoria. Thank you so much for coming back. Thank you so much for having me, Jessica. It's always fun to chat with you. Yes, I know. We always can do this, like the intro before we talk for like probably the whole hour. Um. So I would love if you can just introduce you. My people that listen have probably heard your other podcast, but just to start there, who are you and what do you do?

Yeah, so my name is Victoria Kerl and I am a certified Divorce Financial analyst and a family financial mediator. Um, and I founded Divorce Analytics, which is my divorce financial planning firm, where our goal is really to help. People replace their divorce fear with financial facts. Um, I've been doing this for essentially the last eight years.

[00:05:00] I had a super abusive relationship with, I, I call him Voldemort. He was my college sweetheart and we had a 10 year relationship and it was just super, super abusive towards the end. And I had to figure out how to get out. And thankfully I have, uh, some money skills and my dad was really invested in making sure I knew how to operate in a man's world.

I was able to essentially create a financial plan, uh, that showed how we could divide everything up. And I was able to present that to Baltimore at our kitchen table. And, you know, our relationship was physically abusive and I wasn't sure, you know, who was gonna end up, uh, you know, in a body bag, but. Sure wasn't gonna be me, but he was, uh, yeah, not a nice guy.

And you know, the point is our relationship was filled with issues, but because I reframed the conversation and I stopped his fricking gaslighting, we were able to actually have a [00:06:00] relatively amicable divorce where we both were able to come up with a, a win-win outcome based off of my financial report.

And, uh, we had a pretty. Easy rest of uh, you know, the uncoupling. And so I know it's possible. I've lived this life and my whole goal with Divorce Analytics is to help women and men just like myself, who are leaving these abusive situations, understand the financial implications of their divorce so they don't end up in divorce.

Purgatory, yeah. Not a good place to be. Yeah, yeah. Which, um, sometimes I'm still in, as we just talked about. Um, yeah, no, but that's such, like, that's such an important thing. And, um, just from, you know, talking to you, but also from following you on Instagram and being on your email list. Like, um, I, I wonder if we could just touch on about like the.

Before we get down into some of the more details about this, the strategy that you, that you have around, you know, presenting like a global [00:07:00] solution almost at the beginning to, to bring like, yeah, bring that to the table as the talking point, rather than going like, how about this piece? How about this piece?

But I want this, but to almost like, reframe the conversation and like, what I really like about that approach is that it makes things. Well, one, obviously much more organized, but it also brings, like, I think it just pulls back a lot of the abuse that can happen when the little things are being worked out.

Um, can, can you talk just like briefly about like that strategy? 'cause I think it's going to be important even though we're gonna, you know, dive into the weeds today. For sure. So I think it's really important that everyone knows that divorce is an order of operations event. And so essentially what that means is like there's a specific sequence of doing things, and obviously each situation is going to be different, and you're gonna have different personalities that pull you in opposite directions, but the process remains the same.

You [00:08:00] need to really figure out the entire marital estate value and develop a way to divide it and address the other issues for resolution such as spousal support. Child support, all of those other auxiliary issues. And so when people are working with an attorney, a traditional attorney, right, they have a different way of doing things.

And so keep in mind there's some good attorneys out there, there's some that do things, you know, very much so the same way it's been done for a thousand years and it leaves a lot to be desired. So when you are working with a typical attorney. They adjudicate or negotiate one topic at a time. And this is like miserable because not only does it prevent you from using the leverage, um, from one area of your divorce to getting a better deal, it actually makes [00:09:00] it so much more expensive.

Yeah. Let's be honest, like a lot of these issues interplay with each other, and so you can't really talk about, you know, divorce division of all the assets unless you know who's gonna get the house and if they can qualify for it. And so it's really on your shoulders to put together a global settlement proposal.

Otherwise, you're gonna end up spending, like, you're gonna be nickel and dimmed to death, except it's gonna have a lot more, you know, a few commas attached to the end of the, yeah. Results. So making sure that you put together a cohesive strategy is going to be the best way, especially if you are dealing with a gaslight or a narcissist or an abuser, right?

They. I, I, I would, I, I pretty much deal with 90% of my cases are very abusive, and in these cases it always comes down to the abuser continues the same bullshit [00:10:00] they were doing during the marriage, and they, you have to have a way to counteract that. Mm-hmm. And Right. The best way to do that is with.

Documentation. Right. And this is where it's so important to get all of the organizational pieces together before you actually, you know, move forward with the divorce if you are able to. So you do have all of the documentation and the pieces in place so you don't end up with, uh, you know, a multi figure divorce cost at the end of the day.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that I. That is so important, but, and it also kind of goes right to the first question I I had for you today. Um, and like, literally like I have a question, the next one goes right into the documentation thing. So I think it's certainly like, it's certainly aligned, but um, when. So say somebody is like, or they're like, okay, I wanna get to that point.

I wanna get to the point where like I do, I am able to sort of present this holistic picture, but I [00:11:00] actually have no idea what the family finances are. What do you typically recommend it or what should they do if they're starting to think about divorce? Maybe for this example, we just think about it in terms of like, if this person, man, or woman doesn't have a job, but this is what they're thinking of.

So they're not, maybe their job is. Uh, you know, taking, taking care of the kids more of the home life. That's what they've chosen. Mm-hmm. Which obviously puts the power on the other side, especially if the findings are restricted. We can assume this is a control dynamic. Um, but it's like if they don't have access to the accounts, maybe they don't even know how many accounts there are.

Yeah, this is really, really common. I can't tell you how many times, especially in financially coercive relationships where one person, um, you know, is not really given access to the funds. And so I, you know, it's a little bit of a reconstruction job that we have to do, but I really have [00:12:00] noticed clients know a lot more than they give themselves credit for.

Yeah. Still living with your partner, obviously. You know, it depends on how abusive they are. Some of my clients they have, they're being electronically surveilled in their home. Some clients don't have those extreme issues to deal with, so it's always important to keep in mind that your case is gonna have its own peculiarities that you're gonna have to be mindful of.

And so. You know, the ideas, uh, that I share with you today are, you know, good for general education purposes. Mm-hmm. But if you guys do need, you know, specific advice, make sure you reach out to the right financial or legal professional. Um, and then as always, things are gonna be a little different in your state.

So, mm-hmm. With that in mind, um, as you are kind of going through and dealing with this, you have to, you know, start. Kind of mapping together everything. And so a good place to begin is generally with the tax return because, you know, this is not going to show [00:13:00] you a full, like, uh, balance sheet, but it, it'll at least give you some idea as to what kind of, you know, how much money is coming in, um, from an income tax perspective.

And that's another caveat, uh, because how you do an income tax. Calculation for the IRS is different than how you determine the total income for a divorce calculation, right? And so, especially if you're, uh, your spouse is a business owner, if you are, there's going to be more, uh, little things for your calculations to have into consideration.

So a good place to begin again is with that tax return. But then also I have a four page document checklist on my website under the free tools page that it will kind of help get the juices flowing. You know, not everybody's gonna have everything on that worksheet, but it will help you start organizing and, you know, keeping an eye out for the information that you, you need to be gathering.

That is super helpful and [00:14:00] I'll make sure to put a link in the show notes so that people can go right to the list. Um, I'm making a note right now, um, so that they can get it if they, if they want to look at it. I also, I, I think you're right, like, and I wonder if you can expand a little bit on that. They know more than they think.

'cause I believe that too. And I. I've worked with a client to get started finding just different things or even parts of account numbers, you know, it's like, okay, maybe you only have the last, you know, four numbers or something. But that's still information. 'cause you know where it is, the account number that you can get, you can get things subpoenaed, at least if you know what bank it's in, you know?

And so, mm-hmm. Like what Is that your experience too, that once they start going, they actually realize, okay, I can find at least some of it. Oh my gosh, Jessica. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, because keep in mind, like there has generally been so much freaking [00:15:00] gaslighting, especially regarding the money in these relationships, right?

And so it's not like. You have to break through almost like that hard outer layer of the, the incorrect financial narrative, right? Where, you know, that has just been established by that abusive person so they can continue to rain hell down on everyone, right? So. You have to. That's where I love working with divorce coaches like you, Jessica, because that's where you know that holy trio of divorce professionals, the attorney, the coach, and the analyst really work best together.

You know, there's that emotional. Stuff that you have to work through with the coach, and that helps you really understand, you know, how bad they were working or how hard they were working to perpetuate these lies. And so my role as the analyst is to come in and really. Make sure all of the documentation is played [00:16:00] in place to make sure that we're truly maximizing the marital estate value.

And that's something I think is really important, um, to talk about because attorneys like God love them, but they're not trained and personal finance, nor are they trained in how to deal with high conflict personality disorders unless they have gotten post-secondary education. And let me tell you, they oftentimes don't, you know, they're.

Business is essentially the war of attrition. And in a war of attrition, it's uh, you know, you essentially capitulate the other party into doing what you want by a lot of small losses. And so they have a different modus of operating, uh. So it's really important as you are in these initial stages to have defined financial variables or know where your unknowns are, that you know, it doesn't matter if you don't know, because there's always a process, um, to, to get that information.

But you need to know what you don't know, if [00:17:00] that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then I think there are ways to begin to figure it out even when you don't know. You know, like, like I said, like, you know, look at the mail. Like I used to have someone when the mail would come in and then she'd leave it on the table.

She would just write down the, like the banks that were sending mail, you know. Um, and there was another one that like, where. Partner went on a business trip and she just used the time to go and be like, all right, I'm gonna do one, like one swoop of, you know, what other accounts or credit cards or things could I find.

And she, this is the one of the weirdest, or it's actually not that weird, but it's the bizarre stories. But it happens so often. So that's why it's not actually bizarre, is she found a shoebox of credit cards, uh, and like. It ended up coming out in the divorce later on that like, they were all maxed out.

And so the amount of, oh my God was like crazy. But she was like, I [00:18:00] remember like, I'll never remember like the, the picture she sent me, she was like, and I was like, oh my God. Like, yeah. And I was like, but now take pictures and write them all down, you know? Yeah, but it is cra like you're, it is crazy and you're right.

Like if this, and imagine if you're going one at a time as you find this and then communicating with your lawyer and one at a time, and then communicating with your lawyer. That bill is so high. Instead of just like, okay, let me gather everything I can find and then, you know, put it together, look at the information, you know, possibly work with like, you know, somebody like you that is like, okay, there, there has to be.

Something like this here, or, okay, if you didn't get the tax returns, that's another piece of the puzzle before it goes to your attorney, because then you're also showing them like, look, I'm doing the work here, but now I need you to help me manage this legally. You know, I think you said that so succinctly, and you have to keep in [00:19:00] mind, I think that an attorney is a linguistical warrior.

Yeah. Are not, like, you kind of have to point them in the right direction and then push them, you know, out the door and say, go get it. So once you kind of do your homework right, you can save yourself not only like a lot of money, but it's also a. Increasing your divorce experience. Um, I am a big proponent of divorce does not have to suck.

It can truly be the healing that you need to have a really successful rest of your life. And in order to do that, you need to try to be working in a cohesive way so your divorce doesn't drain you not only of money, but also of much needed energy. Yeah. I think it's also, you know, I wanna circle back around really quick to, uh, the mail because that is, you know, gosh, before the internet that was sure everything.

But if you, you know, if your spouse [00:20:00] has a home office, as long as the mail is opened, right? You can go, uh, check in and, you know, actually see what the, the statement says. But if you just kind of wait for them to open it, keep track of where they file it in their cabinet, uh, you can really do a lot of digging and help yourself out.

But. The gaslighting has to have a way to, to be prevented. Otherwise it will continue into a divorce. And the, the sad thing is that I see sometimes when attorneys get overwhelmed, their clients don't understand exactly all of the financial variables. Um, it can just be very hard for an attorney to actually.

Understand what they need to argue and fight for. Right. Right. And like, and I always, and I think that they are way less likely, like an attorney's way less likely to say, I'm confused. I don't understand. Like, let's get another, you know, person in here to help, like work through this [00:21:00] or, you know, the finances aside.

Mm-hmm. All on the same page. I think a lot of times they, they, you know, they take the approach of, no, I know what to do when, as. In our and, and we're usually coming into this like very confusing time of life and overwhelming time of life at the most exhausted we've ever been. And Yes, and so like, we're just like, oh, okay.

I guess they get it. Rather than being able to take a step back and ask yourself, wait, do they get it? You know, because maybe, mm-hmm. Your attorney is an amazing attorney for protecting your children and for. Standing up to your ex and their, their council too, but maybe where they are not the best when it comes to the finances and they just need some help.

And it's more about, I think like, I mean obviously don't go tell them like, Hey, you actually suck, you know, when it comes to this. But to be able to just even for yourself say, no, this is, this is her area of expertise. And, and I'm gonna let her like, you [00:22:00] know, really drive the child ship right now, but when it comes to the finances, I wanna get extra support on board because that will help me feel safe on this case and eventually save me money and time and stress as we go on.

Yeah, I think that's just so beautifully put. Uh, attorneys, they. I have a great role to play in the process, but you just have to keep in mind they are not gonna be able to answer your financial questions, and they have, they are always looking. To the legal system to dictate their process. Mm-hmm. And that is very much so set up in like, let's talk about one topic at a time unless you come prepared.

Right. Right. So it's all essentially on your shoulders to really, you know, provide the information and to honestly steer the ship. I, you know, I've made decisions where I've been in stressful situations and as soon as I hired an attorney, I'm like, [00:23:00] thank God I don't have to think anymore. Yes. And it's like, no, that was so, it was the wrong mindset, and it's actually, when you hire the attorney, when you build out your divorce team, that's when you actually need to lean into the process.

You know, this is all like, we're all working for you, that client, you know, and we need to know exactly what you are looking to get out of this experience and what your financial concerns are, and all of the, you know. Financial realities that we have to deal with in your spouse's, uh, personality issues, right?

All of this gets rolled into one really traumatizing or could be potentially traumatizing event. And so that's really where working with a coach to manage the emotions so you can show up with your analyst and your attorney in your best mindset to really maximize this experience. And it is going to be a lot of work on the front end.

It saves you so much [00:24:00] heartache and just insanity. Right, right. I can't tell you how many times, you know. Uh, I, I really, you know, not to be bashing on attorneys, you, they just don't understand how all of this is going to work out in regards to the family finances. When you move from one house to two house houses, and you know, a lot of people kind of forget, unless they're in finance like myself, that you know, your income tax is, they're going to change.

You're gonna go from married to single or either head of household, and this is going to not only reduce the amount of income that you bring in. But it's also a wonderful opportunity to figure out how to deal with the child, uh, tax dependency situation. If you have one kid, then you're gonna have to negotiate.

And if you, um, if your spouse is a higher earning spouse, or if you are like that child tax status is going to mean a hell of a lot to you because it's going to enable you to go from a single, um, [00:25:00] income filer status to a head of household. Mm-hmm. That's gonna save you a little bit more money. And, uh, you know, so that has a lot of value.

And you know, that conversation is never actually had, unless you're working with a financial professional, uh, to kind of set the stage to help, um, that topic be properly leveraged. Yeah, that's such an important point too. And that, you know, and like, and I think the way that you're phrasing it, like when you talk about it, is so clear to you because it's the world that you live in.

It's the, the how your brain thinks. Same for me, when I talk about like course of control and things like that, it's like, so it's exactly, you know, 'cause I'm seeing it. They're not trained to see it, but they also are not, and a lot of times they're not filling in the gaps, you know? Mm-hmm. For of their own education, where I think like, you know, obviously you and I, we.

We do in these areas. Um, and I, I wanna talk a little bit about like, the role that a financial analyst or, um, divorce an, you know, [00:26:00] analyst can play when someone feels totally in the dark about money. So say you have a client that really just is like, I mean, I've had these clients too, like it is so overwhelming and maybe they're, they can't.

Get all the, that they're struggling to find all the documents, but they clearly need help because that's how, I mean, and their lawyer might even be saying to them, you know, you may need to get outside support to help you get this stuff together. What is the role that like you play in that scenario? Yeah, so it always depends on what the issues for resolution are within that household.

Uh, but generally it always kind of centers around either child oral support and then determining the total marital estate valuation. And so. Always, I like to figure out how urgent their cashflow needs are. And this is, I think we were actually just talking about this before we started the podcast. Um, I see so many times [00:27:00] where I have, uh, the, the spouse that gave up their career, you know, they are raising the kids and then the divorce gets dropped on them and then all of a sudden their spouse cuts off all the money.

Yeah. It is super overwhelming and, uh, you know, it's not an easy position to be in. And so this is where having your financial information at your fingertips can be, uh, just, uh, the world of difference in the end. And so you need to figure out, I think one of the most important things is figuring out your monthly expenses.

Okay, this is going to help you actually get an emergency spousal support order. And that's where I think, uh, an analyst can be so helpful, especially when you are dealing with a child custody issue. That's probably gonna be the most pressing concern, but I would say equally important is making sure you have, uh, spousal support.

Yeah. So depending on what state you're in, sometimes you can't go back and ask for retroactive [00:28:00] support. So making sure you know, you have the, the mental bandwidth to kind of tackle those two topics at once is going to just make the rest of your divorce easier. And so with that being said, um, you know, we generally start by figuring out the budget.

I know it's so not sexy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and we're also raised in this like wonderful capitalistic like juggernaut where we're always told if we have any type of emotional dysregulation. Well, the best way to solve it is like by, with a trip to the mall or by, uh, yeah. Walking. Yeah. Uh, mind to Amazon.

So you have to be really kind to yourself, especially if you feel like you are the least financially savvy spouse in the marriage. I, I guarantee you know more than you actually realize. And the best place to really begin is just by really, I. Writing down all of the information that you, you, you, you know, and then start listing the information.

You don't. [00:29:00] And so we're then able to kind of, you know, take that and expand upon it, you know, getting those tax returns, building out the budget, making sure, you know, just doing a simple, uh, exercise and listing out all of the assets that you know you have. Um, that that's a good way to begin. That sounds, yeah, that I, I totally hear that.

And it kind of just goes back to like trying to get as much information as you possibly can and before, you know, I think, I think just like putting yourself in a place of like prepping for the divorce before. Like, almost like once you decide, I think I want to do this, to start beginning to put things together, it's gonna help you regardless.

You know, just to even, I mean, even just to advocate for yourself if, if you're in the relationship longer, to want to, to see the financial records and the transparency and to, you know, that's a dangerous place sometimes to go, but I think. My listeners probably get what I'm saying, just so that if you [00:30:00] are realizing the course of control, like, okay, well I can begin to see what the picture is and then, you know, but the more like, I think it kind of goes back to like, I think the point we've made a few times.

You probably know a lot more than you know, or you probably have access to a lot more than you think. Well, and especially if you guys are still married and living in the same household, like just go raid their office as long as the mail's open and they're not, you know, keeping, if there's not a camera on the door or whatever it is, like, you know, there's ways to get information.

Right, right. You know, you still talk to your advantage. Yeah. Yeah. So. There's so many tools and it's like when we're going through divorce, our brain goes into fight or flight and we stop. You know, if, unless the answer is really easy, sometimes it just feels too overwhelming to figure out. So use the pre-planning stage to really benefit you and just, you know, keep your ear to the ground, write down everything that you, you know, hear [00:31:00] and keep track of that.

Yeah. Yeah. What, what are safe ways to set money aside or build a bit of a financial cushion if someone is not working and worried about retaliation from the other person? Yeah, well, it depends on the level of financial control the other person has on their money. And so in this situation, let's just assume that they're a single or not a single parent.

They're an a, stay at home parent and um, you know, they have a credit card to buy groceries and all that other stuff. And so what I have seen clients do in the past is that they, uh, will, you know, buy more than they need and then go kind of take it. They will, um, go return it later, or they'll start getting gift cards as a part of that.

Um, but really it's kind of a challenging experience to be in. You do have to kind of set up a separate fund. Um, a lot of the times you're gonna have to either take on credit card debt or get a [00:32:00] HELOC if you have absolutely no money, and that's not the best position to be in. So the more that you can plan ahead.

Start saving money here and there, the better off you'll be. Um, sometimes you have family members that are willing to step up, but a lot of the times I've seen people, they had a previous 401k from a job that they go in and use those monies. Um, but it just is all about. Figuring out what resources you have and then also taking into consideration the man or the woman that you're with and their, you know, proclivities to high conflict and how they're going to respond to everything.

And, you know, really planning out how much money you're going to have to, to use to, to fight them. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I. I know like before we, um, started recording, you and I were talking just about like the belief system, you know, and like financial beliefs. And I know you work with a lot of women that once they get on the other side they [00:33:00] are, well, women and men, I'm sure.

Like I, I actually, I've been, I work with both as well and I, I don't like the, I don't know, the idea that it's just men that are abusive. Certainly it is, we see a lot more women, but. I've seen it on both sides. The, you know, this pattern. Um, and I am sure that there's a lot of like financial myths that are in people's minds that when they are, you know, talking to you, there might be coming up as beliefs, but I'm curious of like, what do you think some of those, like myths might be that they're sort of operating off of that you wish more people saw as like, just.

Maybe like they're not, it's not real, it's not, it's false. Um, they are just a myth that might be guiding a belief system. That is a brilliant question, Jessica. So I can't tell you how many times [00:34:00] I have clients tell me like, um, you know, my money is our money, but his money is his money. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm like, oh, no. Yeah, yeah. No, no, no, no, no. And so all of these conversations that went on during the marriage, these financial narratives that the family established, they have elements of that coercive control in it. And so. My job is really to go through and break those down. Right? You know, any money that was made during the marriage that, you know, as long as there's not a prenup or a post up in place that is part of the marital estate.

Hands down and you know, I, I feel really bad for my clients that have been told that their at home contributions do not have economic value. This actually gets me really fired up. Yeah, totally. Yeah, totally. It's like, well, who would be, you know, my, I, that fires me up [00:35:00] too, because I'm like, okay, then if, okay, if you go to work from say, eight to six.

Please then share with me like who's going to watch the how, how are you paying for childcare then? Mm-hmm. Yeah, precisely. Yeah. Well, that, that's really where I enjoy doing spousal support calculations, because most people honestly have no idea what their life costs, and then they just think that the stay at home parent is like free labor, or not even labor, right?

They're just like. I don't even know what their thought process is in their mind, but they completely discount what it would cost for that person to, you know, be replaced by a nanny or whatever. But then also they totally forget that what has enabled them to have in life, right? They get this beautiful family.

They get to like have their high powered job, whatever. They get to live their best life, right? And like really they get to either be like a Disneyland dad or [00:36:00] whatever it is, and, uh, you know, just kind of come in when everything is great and kinda stir the pot for mom or, you know, whatever it is in your household.

So, you know, so many of these people really need to be brought back down to reality. And I, I was just working with a gal. I mean, it was, it was insane. Her husband was like making $50,000 a month. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. But even worse, he was living overseas where it's not taxed and so she's living in California, you know, barely making.

Like, I like six or $7,000 a month. And their financial narrative was so jacked up. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. He was sending him money. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's like, and then you also see it with the abuse of people that they're always like, I'm broke, I'm poor. I have nothing to give. You know? Oh, if I have to give you, you know, $500 a month [00:37:00] in child support, I just can't live, you know, I'm gonna be in the poor house.

Yeah. They are so good at removing themselves from the accountability process. Um, they have probably, you know, rubbed that belief off on you. And so that's another thing where, you know. People, they've been outside of the family finances and they just think that they're gonna have to yolo it all on their own.

And that's not right. And this is where getting that emergency, uh, temporary or that emergency spousal support order is going to really help that economically disadvantaged spouse, because like, it's not just the divorce and all the other stuff that you have to deal with. It's also like updating the messed up mindset that.

Enabled that abusive person to have all of the power in the marriage. Right. And it all, yeah, and it levels the playing field too, right? It's [00:38:00] not just like the power and controls on one side. I feel like it, um, it like, it levels it a little bit. 'cause now this person especially and also like, comes off looking really bad if they're like complaining about the money to the court system that they're giving, you know, in the temporary support.

It like, it kind of shows some of their cards of. Their entitlement. And of course it depends on the, the judge, but it's not a good look, you know, like, just like how it's not a good look when they're, when people are leveraging parenting time for child support. Like child support is a, it is your duty as a parent that you like and a requirement.

And that's why it works on a calculator. Absolutely. And that, you know, I wish there was a different way, unfortunately. I have not seen a foolproof way to force the other person to uphold their percentage of the non-covered child support related [00:39:00] costs. Right. So, you know, child support's only gonna go so far and then your kid's gonna have all these other activities and most of the time, most divorce decrees state that, um, the expenses will either be split 50 50 or it'll be on a proport of income.

Mm-hmm. Um, well that court order is great. It only like works if the other person follows through, right? So this is where unfortunately you have to document all of the expenses that they're not paying, so then you can take them back to court to then get them to pay. And so. It's not, uh, you know, it's just kind of a crappy system to begin with.

And so that's really where if you have all of your financial ducks in a row, if you like, squarely understand the, you know, the children's historical non, uh, covered expenses by child support, right? You can then try to help educate that, that other spouse [00:40:00] into capitulating and complying with you. But at the end of the day, some people are just sticks in the mud and you're going to have to take them back to court, unfortunately.

And so that's really where documentation saving, you know, your text messages, either using that, you know, our Family Wizard or some type of co-parenting app. But documentation and using it in an objective way, this is like another crappy thing. Mm-hmm. But the court doesn't wanna know anything about your feelings.

Yeah. That honestly, Victoria, that I was gonna ask you that question next, and you're, so, you're like right on like. Right apart and like, it's probably our last question, you know, because of the time. But Mike, uh, you send out these amazing newsletters, um, and they're super detailed and one of them that you sent out in the last two months was about not letting your emotions, you know, affect your divorce.

Strategy and it, it, that's exactly where you're about to go. So I wanted to first name, the newsletters are amazing and I want people to sign [00:41:00] up. But two, can you explain like how the emotions can kind of like really hijack some of the documentation at times? Oh, absolutely. And this is where I wish it was a different way, but um, the court system is so.

Desensitizing and dehumanizing. This is not like where you go to feel good about yourself or to have your feelings heard. Unfortunately, the only thing it really cares about is the objective facts, and it does not want to have any like strenuous emotion associated with it. Otherwise, what ends up happening is that the emotional person gets labeled insane.

They get labeled as crazy. They're the crazy person in the relationship. And then unfortunately that fuels and feeds the fire for the high conflict person. 'cause they're like, oh yeah, look it, you know, they, they're getting upset when they shouldn't be. And so it's truly this double-edged sword. [00:42:00] So that's really where you come into play, Jessica, because that emotional support that you set people up to have a successful court appearance.

When it comes down to actually presenting and preparing your evidence, you have to keep in mind that a divorce is a.

You know, 100% a business event that has a, a legal and financial implication, an emotional one as well in your life. So you have to treat it as such. Uh, otherwise what ends up happening is the court will, you know, I've, I've seen it work that a woman got upset about losing her child. Um, and there, you know, it was proof that she shouldn't have the kid then.

And it was just like, what? What world a mother getting upset for not having access to her child is then, you know, proof of her mental instability. Right? [00:43:00] Judges and family law attorneys, they, well, frankly, a lot of 'em are disordered themselves. Yeah. They're like conflict assholes. Sorry. No, no. They're like, a lot of attorneys are narcissists.

It, it's just though, I mean, same thing with like police officers, FBI agents, you know, um, uh, judges like they, I, that's the field that they're in. Salespeople, right? Like that's kind of the, the environment. Absolutely. And so you have to keep in mind that these people, like they generally are going to see your emotions as either an unwanted intrusion or as a sign of like you.

You know, just not being, you know, a, a good person, which is, we all know not true. And so when you are going through the, the financial division and any custody issue, you really have to be focusing on how you phrase things. And it [00:44:00] seems kind of silly, right? But it's so important, you know, using little things like.

Uh, Mr. Smith instead of John, you know, stuff like this because it helps create a little bit of a, a separation in your mind so you can maybe, you know, not get involved with those emotions, but you need to be able to clearly articulate without any type of, um. Maybe even negative, uh, connotation what that other person did and have it be so objective that the judge can see for themself.

You don't need to give them, you know, when we're dealing with high conflict people, they create so much, you know, paperwork of their, you know, crappy behavior. It's there. It is definitely there and I always like to, I have found out that. Unfortunately most psychological and emotional a, a abuse, there is no paper trail for it.

But what there is a paper trail of is the financial coercion [00:45:00] that they put you through. And so depending on all of the elements of your divorce, you can pull on these to actually create an objective family financial narrative that explains how money was used as a power and control object in your relationship.

And so that's where you really have, um, a lot more opportunity when you are framing things objectively to use that knowledge to get you to, um, a settlement and resolution sooner. It's just pretty powerful when you are able to then take a step back from your emotions. You obviously, you have to process them and be aware of them and give them their own due respect, but when you are dealing with attorneys or judges, it's 100% by the facts all the time.

Exactly, exactly. And just like a, a quick note that if you are dealing with somebody that. Is financially coercive and you're struggling to show the court or even your lawyer patterns around the [00:46:00] kids, it can be really useful to lean into like where they are being either coercive, controlling, um, withholding information, misrepresenting information financially, because it is so clear and it is numbers.

And even if a judge doesn't. Fully understand like all the finances, which they likely don't, but they can see like, okay, if this account says this and your account says this, why is it like this? You know? Or if you say that this is, you know, this, all these accounts only have your name on it and this account, you know, just has mom's name on it as a shared person, like.

They can start to begin to see what's going on, especially when it gets down the road to discovery and the other side doesn't provide documents, or they do provide documents and there's so many red flags in it, it really starts to chip away at the credibility. So don't discount the finances. Like so many people say, including myself, I don't give a crap about money.

I care about my kid, but especially, but I'm, you know, I'm. Eight years down [00:47:00] the road, it's much different. I think when you are, um, in the beginning, care about it because it can, one, it, it will help set you up, but also it can expose a lot of the holes. And I think that's really important because your lawyer may think that, oh, like, you know, I think lawyers now think, oh, everybody, they see everybody as a narcissist or, or not, you know?

Or they're so used to their clients just complaining about their ex. They're not looking at it the way through the lens of course of control. But when it comes down to the finances, it can be a really good tool, even if your heart of hearts. Doesn't really care because what you want is custody. I would say lean into it because it can show the pattern of behavior that's happening.

Absolutely. And you know, all of this works together and I think it kind of goes back to our original like topic. You need to build out a global settlement proposal for all of this, right? Because it [00:48:00] works together. And the more that you can explain. How the coercive control has impacted your family, your relationships, um, your kids and all that stuff.

And here's the implications of the finances. You know, it's easier than to get a, a judge on your side, right? It has to be very objective because at the end of the day, that's what the judge is there to be, right? There's supposed to be an unbiased third party. And so if you are able to meet them where they currently are, instead of providing, um, you know.

Uh, subject or subjective narratives that kind of, you know, I, I'm sure a lot of what has happened is accurate, but they don't wanna hear this. Right. Right. Exactly. Victoria, as you know, I love having you on the podcast. I think everything you share is so informative and it's just like, just I'm not as financially minded, which, you know, I, and so when you talk about it, I just want to just emphasize that it always seems [00:49:00] approachable and that I don't get overwhelmed ever when you talk about finances, even in like, you know, through reading your resources and things like that.

And it's so important, you know? So thank you so, so, so much for. Here and also just for doing the work that you do. Oh yeah. Thank you so much. I wish you could see the big smile. Oh yeah, I can see it. Yeah. Can you just share it with people, your website and like I said, I'm gonna put your resources in the show notes and everything.

Um, and you'll definitely be back again, but I just, um, just so that they can find you. Absolutely. My name is Victoria Koff. You can check out my website, um, at divorce analytics.com. Follow me on Instagram at Divorce Analytics and thank you so much. I do offer free 30 minute consultations. I know what this is like guys.

I have, I don't have kids, but I. I've been with a high conflict person and like I thought that, I thought, you know, I like the end of the world was like near [00:50:00] when I was with him and I never thought I could be so happy without him. And I gotta say like I. This can be the best thing that ever happened to you.

With the right support and the right team, you do not have to stay in an abusive marriage. You can really live your best life, and there's truly no better revenge than just being who you are without them. Yeah, in all world to see. Absolutely. Yep. Absolutely. All right, well thank you so, so much, and I will talk to you soon.

Thank you, Jessica. All right. Bye bye-Bye.